New app, doubt ranking

Hi all,

I published my new app last friday, second day after the publication I achieved 700 downloads in a single day, I was quite surprised about it as was very successful start, the problem comes now when I don’t why this app is not being shown in the android market ranking of the new apps (and should be showed as I have an older app with less downloads being shown) and consequently this is affecting the natural growth of the application.

Any of you knows why? which can be the reason?

Thanks!

b.

Are you checking on your phone, or on the web? Sometimes I find the Android version of Google Play caches the lists, which means your app may not appear right away.

Another possibility - Google hasn’t refreshed the Top New rankings yet, and your app is only getting that number of downloads because of some lucky coincidence with search terms (i.e. people are searching for your app name directly).

Is not cache as I can see how the list change every day (I have another app on the list). Indeed I can see my app showing on normal ranking (position 470) but I can’t found it on new app ranking.

so strange!

b.

I believe the rankings are also affected by country.

Your 700 downloads could probably come from Guatamala, while you’re in New York. Thus you will not see it in that list but people in Guatamala will see the app in their list.

Just my $0.02 :slight_smile:

PS - I could be wrong of course :smiley:

Yes, this can be possible but is not the case as all my downloads comes from Spain and I’m from Spain, and in the ranking of news apps I can see spanish apps.

What did I do to deserve this? :frowning:

welcome to the world of google!

anyway, sorry, i have no other ideas why it is not showing on your charts… hmm…

Guys I found out what was happening and now my app show on top new ranking :slight_smile:

It was related with the way how I develop my App, I have several app based in quiz, each app have different data but contains same java code, the point was that I published first App and when I made the second one I used the same eclipse project (only changing package name). in someway when I published the second one google detect that the application was already in top new and then didn’t show it as new. What I did to solve was, create new android project and update the version in market.

FYI.

Thanks,

B.

Thanks! That’s good to know. I’ve heard some people suggesting to do a “beta-test”, then resubmit your app to get it back in the “Top New” lists once you have gotten some feedback and improved it some. This is helpful to know if anyone’s thinking of doing that.

Ranking of apps in various categories maybe based on other factors - perhaps the ratings, perhaps the relation to common search terms or whatever.

So just because one app rises to a certain level, the second may not rise to the same level I am guessing.

I have seen apps with fewer ratings and downloads ahead of other more established apps (for a given search term).

This means Google is using more than just download numbers to rank apps for some search term.

Regarding the possibility of resubmitting app as a “new app” - the Google Play 1-month effect seems to be quite prominent - the first month allow app to be elevated in rankings but that tends to slide as soon as the month elapses.

Though the app can then start to make it on it’s own after being dropped.

As some have suggested this method maybe Google’s way of throwing things up and seeing where they go - sort of a “15 minutes of fame” kind of thing.

The advantage of staying within Google promotion is that you tend to get 20% more downloads.

However if your app is good the daily downloads graph can drop after the first month and then recover.

Yes, there are some methods to get started fast but I haven’t figured it out yet. Let’s take a look at this guy: Solitaire Classic | AppBrain Android Market. In the same niche as me, got to over 250k downloads in a week. App is good but not amazingly good, there must be some trick somewhere. Big advertising spend? I don’t know.

If anyone reading this knows what the trick is I’d gladly pay $1000 for sharing this knowledge with me (after proving it successful of course :).

Probably house ads. Look at the other applications by the developer. Almost all of them have millions of downloads. Then it probably got into the Top new lists and got some downloads from there but I would guess most of the downloads came from house ads. I downloaded another application made by that developer and was shown an advertisement for a game made by the same developer. In the beginning I’m guessing almost all advertisement impressions went towards the solitaire game.

To make it work for you, you would of course have to get a couple of million downloads on your other apps first :slight_smile:

This is of course only guesses and it’s possible that the developer advertised using other methods as well but this is what I think seems most likely.
I doubt there are any quick way to gain lots of attention unless you’re very lucky or spend (tens of) thousands on advertising, or if you already have a very large user base.

Edit: Probably gained a lot of attention by making it into the rankings too: Solitaire Classic - Daily Ranks | App Annie

Yes, but how he got into those rankings? If only by house ads then it’s big advertising spend. Not really matter whether it’s ads bought from outside party or house ads that someone uses to promote games instead of selling to outside party. It still costs money (payed or not earned). House ads are cheaper of course :slight_smile:

So the question still stands - if this is just money then how much does it cost to do it? For modetately converting decent game 1M users could mean $100-200k of revenue. If spending $10-20k would do it then it would be well worth it. Not very cheap for an experiment though :slight_smile:

As you can see, the developer from that app has published several app’s.
I Suspect that he uses cross ad promotion to get a new app high into the new app’s section.

You may now pay me $1.000,-

I think that strategy of resubmitting the app may work - if the old app users are redirected to the new app - it is then possible that there maybe mass exodus from old app to new one.

I think David’s fake iphone5 may be an example of that - i.e. fake iphone4 going to fake iphone5 app.
And I have seen that in earlier car racing games and other examples - where they release say “Asphalt” and then “Asphalt 2”. Maybe other reasons for that (want to charge more or whatever or split users so older app is still runnable while newer one may not be on old phones or some such stuff. But after seeing Google Play one month stuff at work, I would not be surprised if getting another month of promotion was an extra reason for that.

One can easily setup a notification system (well there is google notifications etc.) - but can do that on next app startup basically you flip a flag on AppBrain Remote Settings - and the app can then show a different dialog box that “check our update” or whatever.

As discussed here before (in another thread I think) - this maybe a way to leverage Google Play’s one-month of promotion for new apps.

So in summary:

Make an app - slowly rise to some level of popularity - benefit from the first month of Google Play promotion where they try to make you rise up in rankings (perhaps to see where you will “stick”). Help this popularity with social networks - twitter/facebook whatever. And make webpages etc. to go with your app - will make for better google rank perhaps - so get better results from general search engines etc.

After the first month has elapsed you will notice a sudden decline in popularity as Google starts to let you slide down.

After that there maybe some resurgence (maybe some secondary Google algorithm in operation ?) where your app may start to again get some traction.

Watch appannie.com for rankings for your category - can watch by country - can tune translations etc. to see if that helps for some countries. Eventually may get tired of all that effort, but some countries maybe esp. ok for translation like arabic speaking ones etc. - most europeans maybe ok with english (esp. if your subject matter is related to something they search for in english maybe).

Then make a new app. Release that.

In the old app - release a version which allows you to flip a switch at AppBrain Remote Settings - have that then announce to existing users in the old app that hey move over to new one.

Now for this you will need the new app to have some slightly interesting features (i.e. more than just a usual upgrade). So maybe better to time it to a major upgrade.

Anyway that is what it looks like on paper.

I was considering it - and it maybe an option if the app has dropped down in rankings hugely.

But if the old apps gets a second wind (after being dropped after first month) then there maybe some value to keeping on with it also - esp. if it has started to regain in the google rankings - say if it is a live wallpaper and is starting to appear in the top 50 results or whatever.

I suspect the new app route MAY help in getting the raw download numbers high - i.e. you use the old users to ratched up the daily downloads - which may get noticed by Google and it raises you in the rankings (i.e. “trending” etc.). If all old users transfer to new app - then I guess you don’t lose much.

But after the first month for the new app - you are again in the same situation.

So perhaps it may work for a couple of times - but eventually may get tired - and may want the app to have a steady location.

Bottom line is the app has to have some value to the user - can’t just keep doing this with an app that doesn’t do anything.

Secondly it is important to remember that for phone apps, the concept of what is useful for user maybe very different from a serious and plodding developer.

That is, often times the developer may do something very big but that effort maybe beaten by some really simple app - so the developer should have it clear in their mind why they are making the app - for their own joy or for it being commercial - and if commercial then they have to consider the time spent and the rewards/payback.

For that reason they may consider doing something very simple first.

Also there is something very real about the whole phone user thing - i.e. it is not a negative that phone users require shitty apps or something - but that the whole medium/format of the platform may REQUIRE a certain type of app i.e. as many webpages/articles have mentioned i.e. for phone users there maybe a certain type of app - which fits into the “sitting at the dentist’s office” type of small time chunks - or if is a game perhaps is splittable into time chunks - so user can resume where was etc. …

So there is this aspect to consider.

Though others have pointed out that for tablets - the market maybe slightly different - with bigger games etc. maybe winding up dominating … (!?).

I should probably add that social aspect of the game may help also - using some SDK like Socialize etc. for that may help.

Max:

I think you have to think beyond “House Ads” and banner ads - once you have million downloads in other apps, it is VERY EASY (I am guessing) to convert lots of them over if you say put up a splash screen (think Talking Tom Cat with their advertisement of Tom Loves Angela or whatever).

And that is a lot of eyeballs.

I have seen that a big part of the problem of getting people to download apps (not talking about what makes them retain - as that more on how good the app - did it suit their expectations etc.) - is that of “discovery”.

That is - downloads seem to be DIRECTLY proportional to discovery.

Since the user universe is quite big now - at any moment your app is only SCRATCHING the surface for potential user downloads !!!

Now this is a very good thing - in that that means you are VERY VERY far from saturation - even with 100,000 downloads. Or even 1M downloads.

And it means that ANY advertising and any exposure to more people means more downloads - IMMEDIATELY (of course there is a percentage i.e. 1% of those you advertise to etc.).

So once you have apps which have a good number of users - that gives you a CAPTIVE audience that you can FREELY and easily advertise to.

Just think of the value of that - say being able to show a splash screen “we’ve just released a new app today !!” to 1M users - almost immediately you will have 1-5% of them trying that new app - which is 10,000-50,000 users immediately trying your new app.

So this probably DOES get you noticed then by Google Play (unless they have some filters against that - though I doubt it as this is just advertising) - and that leads to rising in the ranks - and then it is a snowball effect …

Also note that the download figures in Google Play maybe big - but the retained figures (those who have it still installed on their phone) are fewer - this can range from 10% to 40% - it is about 25% in my case - that is, only 25% of the total downloads still have the app on their phone.

quote:
So the question still stands - if this is just money then how much does it cost to do it? For modetately converting decent game 1M users could mean $100-200k of revenue. If spending $10-20k would do it then it would be well worth it. Not very cheap for an experiment though

The question becomes - how valuable is each user for your app ?

If you had a online casino app - then you probably expect to get your money back - and it maybe worthwhile to pay. Probably you would have seen enough examples that you can pretty reliably know that “if I spend $1000, I can eventually make back $5000”.

For some publishers - getting high on Google rankings would justify spending the money - as repoted by some websites … the example they gave i.e. spending $2000 per day gives enough downloads to get them to top - and just being on top in Google rankings gives them enough downloads to earn $4000 per day after that.

Now I don’t know how long that lasts i.e. Google may do some rotation also (i.e. the one month promotion being one example).

I suspect that this spend to reach the top may carry more risks for small developers.

For big developers who have spent $10M on a game - probably spending $100,000 more to reach the top of rankings is not just reasonable it is probably REQUIRED - else they may not get to the levels where they have huge downloads and can make their money back.

Hi guys,

I have used most of the strategies described in this thread, first of all I have to say that when you re-publish an app, it is not only to create new android project, there are differents factors that they take care, for example the description of the same, is important to post different description, if not they won’t let to show your app in the top new ranking.

When you have a success app (100k active users is enough) is very easy to get success in new one, what I have done for example is put some splash screen in the current app then this will drive a lot of new install for the new one, it works but the ‘problem’ is that you will get every day same quantity of installs and therefore there are no growth trend if not regular and this means that your app will be stick in the same position of the ranking.

This is why you need a very large base of active users, because if you achieve to put your app in the top10 of new games, this will let that your app achieve the natural growing (snowball effect).

b.

Thanks for the feedback.

So if the description is very similar then they don’t allow to post ? Interesting data point.

I have posted two different apps with description having 80% same words - but with some words different (i.e. when you have two flavors of an app - which does something similar).

So I suspect the publishers who make live wallpaper or theme apps - those would have descriptions very similar just with the name keywords etc. changed in the description - and this should be enough to allow to have them post (I think).

Additional data …

Same title for different apps:

I’ve seen apps from different publishers on Google Play with the same title (perhaps they started off with different titles and then on of the publishers changed the title ?).

Changeable title affects search results:

The title is changeable for your apps - so one possibility (if you want to REPLACE an old app completely in a way in terms of search etc. - though package name WOULD change) is to first rename the old one to something else (say App1 becomes App1 Beta). Then a few days later after the changes have taken effect everywhere you release the new app with the old name.

I suspect this is possible - I have been able to change the title of the app - and it has affected the search results immediately (in that the new words have impact as one would want or expect).

Descriptions are changeable:

Descriptions are changeable - and probably publishers change that all the time - just mentioning that for completeness.

bradolh:

You make an important point - that while one can (temporarily) drive volume and impact the “trend” for your app (using reminders/splash screens in other apps), after initial move to the new app, it becomes very hard to drive volume that is “trending”.


This is why you need a very large base of active users, because if you achieve to put your app in the top10 of new games, this will let that your app achieve the natural growing (snowball effect).

Eventually this probably stagnates as well - as would happen for Angry Birds etc. - but that 'stagnation" is probably at a very high daily download level ! Also you are able to keep your position stagnant at #1 or #2 perhaps (!).

The question is do these apps have to do things on a continual basis to keep their position ? For example Angry Birds dropped a bit in the rankings from what I remember - and then they came out with new apps - the space one and now the star wars one.

So the tension an app producer feels at position 100 is probably similar (though of a different nature) when you are at #1 - as there are new apps from other publishers coming up all the time (or being promoted extra specially by Google that first month) etc.

adforandroidapps,

Regarding the description, if you submit new app with same description of one of you current developer account apps they can detect it and therefore you won’t appears in top new ranking, but people can still download your app by doing hard search.

I think that they have implemented some kind of algorithm to review each one of your apps in you account and trying to match words achieving a final % as result, if this % > X then they send the 7-days notification advise (change the description, tags or whatever if not they will remove the app), in my opinion its only happening with apps of the same accounts, if you have two or more accounts then you can put same description in each different account without problem.

In terms of title , when you are re-submitting new app, I think that putting the same name with ‘2’ can help but is not essential, the most important thing in the app is the description,therefore writing good/large description is very very important. Remember that you are driving users from old app, users doesn’t care about the new app name, they already knows that is the same app.

Quota:
‘The question is do these apps have to do things on a continual basis to keep their position ? For example Angry Birds dropped a bit in the rankings from what I remember - and then they came out with new apps - the space one and now the star wars one.’

When you have an app with this kind of popularity they don’t have to do much, only regular updates for make real the feeling of ‘Im still live’. They are at the top because the people talk (mouth-ears effect), if you realize they can drop to the position #12 and next week come back to #1 again,In my opinion the fact to create new apps as A.B space and Starwars is more for retrieve old users and try to make same money than the first one, at the end is almost impossible to make same basis of active users than the first one and this is why original A.B is always at the top.

B.

So you are saying if the description is below a certain difference level then they bother to send the notification e-mail etc.

But if differences are bigger (but not too big) they internally label the app for some ranking penalty ?

Now this would be hard to check - perhaps you have experience with repeated apps - and have found that a certain new app “should” appear in Top New (but hasn’t) - thus attributing it to the description difference. Though it could also be that by the time you changed the description that the app was steadily going up or whatever … (?)

Otherwise it would be hard to check this - most apps never appear in Top New Apps (except at a very high rank number).

But I guess if you have experience from repeatedly publishing apps - maybe you have a feel for how fast your app should rise the first month.

The rise in rankings could also be checked with appannie - is the appannie “ranking” basically the ranking in the “Top New Free” (or Paid) section for the app category - or is it in the “Top Free” (or Paid) … if anyone knows (perhaps can ask appannie this question).

If there are big differences in the description I don’t think that they do any action, I think that when the percentage of same words is 80% or greater then they move forward.

I think that the description is one of the factors that they determine for show in top new or not, but is not the only one, there are other factors that I don’t know, how I said in one of my above posts I achieved to show my app in top news by changing eclipse project. But after the first month I tried to do the same by uploading new app (same content) but wasn’t shown in top news (days later I received the 7-days notifications, this is why I’m suspecting that they act so with the description).

I can control if my apps are shown or not because in Spain is easy to appear in the top news ranking (USA is too hard), for example if I have 1000 downloads from Spain the first day of the publication I’m sure that the next day this app have to be shown in top new ranking.

I’m also using AppAnnie (great for control how is doing yours apps in local ranking) and they show ranking by category (no top new), for example if one of your apps (within the first month) is shown in the ranking category ‘Brain’ this means that your app also should be in top new ranking in Brain (not always true in my case)

B.